As a year-end gift to my readers, I am thrilled to present an exclusive interview with the extraordinary Joe Zee. I had such an enlightening conversation with him. Joe is a titan in the world of fashion and a true master of style. His journey in the industry is nothing short of remarkable, marked by his innovative vision and transformative influence that has reshaped how we perceive style and trends.
Renowned for his roles in the media world as Creative Director and Editor-in-Chief of various publications such as ELLE, Vanity Fair, W, etc., and also as the Editor-in-Chief at Yahoo Style, Joe has been a vanguard in media, bringing a fresh and insightful perspective to fashion and beauty journalism. His extensive career spans various facets: 1) celebrated stylist and television personality; 2) prolific writer (in his own career memoir published in 2016); 3) creating and executive producing an award-winning documentary series on Netflix (7 Days Out); and most recently, 4) getting an Emmy nomination for his digital series, Dressed, which celebrates the costume design behind many of Focus Features’ films. His uncanny ability to spot and set trends has earned him an esteemed reputation as a fashion maven and a trendsetter. This has also naturally landed him year after year on the Oscars red carpet hosting a pre-show for ABC.
My first encounter with Joe was at the Canadian Arts & Fashion Awards this year, where our shared passion for fashion and its cultural impact instantly struck a chord. From that moment, I knew a conversation with him would be both inspiring and illuminating. Joe’s charisma and depth of knowledge in the fashion industry are as impressive as his ability to mentor and guide aspiring designers and founders, evident from his work on shows such as Stylista and All on the Line.
In the interview, Joe delves into the intricacies of brand storytelling, the evolving landscape of social media in fashion, and the future of brand and celebrity initiatives. His insights are a testament to his deep understanding of the industry and where commerce is headed more broadly.
I hope you enjoy the insights from our conversation, and may they inspire you as much as they have inspired me.
Let’s start with the first question, which I think is a great one to set the tone for the rest of the discussion. In your extensive and celebrated career working with iconic brands in both fashion and beauty, what do you believe is the key element in telling a compelling and memorable brand story?
Well, I think it’s important to preface that the concept and definition of a brand have really evolved over the years. When I started, brands were essentially companies, perhaps with a legacy, but they were still just companies. However, over time – especially recently – the notion of a brand has expanded significantly. Now, everything can be a brand – people are brands, companies are brands, and everything we touch, see, breathe, and live every day has brand value. It’s crucial to remember this broader context when we discuss compelling brand stories.
In this context, where everything is a brand, everything needs to have a point of view. This takes me back to my early days working with young designers who were brimming with creativity and ideas. They wanted to design, and they had a vision. This principle applies equally to entrepreneurs and business starters in various industries. No matter what you aim to be, having a point of view is essential.
You can’t just hop on the bandwagon and chase what’s trendy now. I’ve seen designers who pivot constantly to what’s trending, and often, they don’t endure as well as those who stick true to their essence. In a brand’s lifecycle, there will be ups and downs, but if you remain true to your core, people will always believe in you and invest in your brand. That core base of customers can really suss out authenticity, which is more critical now than ever. With the level of transparency today, consumers are far savvier. You can’t just superficially market something; customers will see through it.
So, what it really boils down to is having that point of view. You must know what you’re about, what your mission and essence are. If you can’t articulate that, if you can’t express your brand’s soul and vision clearly, then you’re not there yet. That’s the starting point for any brand, no matter how you define it.
You mentioned how consumers are now more knowledgeable and can discern the authenticity of a story or brand. This becomes particularly interesting when celebrities, who may not have direct ties to a particular industry, attach their names to products or ventures. In your experience of working with numerous celebrities in developing their proprietary ventures, how have you balanced the fine line between a celebrity’s personal brand and the authenticity of the business they’re interested in building?
My role often involves wrapping content around building up the brand and its storytelling. This is crucial but let me provide a bit of context here. I often call myself the OG content creator, having started as a magazine editor back in 1990. Back then, magazine editors were the original content creators. We created content for a very segmented, curated audience, influencing people’s purchasing decisions, tastes, and ideas on a monthly basis. This role has evolved over time, but the essence remains the same.
When bringing a celebrity into the mix, and by celebrities, I mean everyone from Oscar winners to popular social media figures, the key is authenticity. It’s a term that’s often overused, but its essence is vital for the success of any venture. Consumers today know what a celebrity or an influencer stands for, and they are acutely aware of their authentic self. When a celebrity diverges from their known persona to endorse something entirely out of their known sphere, it raises questions. This divergence can significantly damage their credibility. It’s not just about the immediate product they are endorsing; it affects their entire portfolio of work and public perception.
My job is to bring their voice, their brand, and their point of view to life in a way that feels genuine. This could mean adapting their message to a new audience or reinforcing it with their existing audience in a way that aligns with their authentic self. The delivery method, be it the voice, platform, or medium, must resonate as genuine and true to who they are. For example, there was a lot of scrutiny around Jennifer Lopez promoting wine when she’s known not to drink. Such instances highlight the importance of aligning a celebrity’s endorsements with their authentic self.
While I don’t handle their endorsement deals directly, I am involved in shaping and bringing their narratives to life in a three-dimensional manner that feels real and resonates with their audience. The emphasis is on real and authentic. But when it hits, it can resonate on such a deep level that really connects with a consumer. And that’s where storytelling comes in.
Can you share a specific example where you successfully translated an individual’s or brand’s identity into a narrative that resonated with audiences? During this process, what challenges did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
When I think back to specific instances, my mind goes to my time at ELLE magazine in 2007. They hadn’t had a creative director before me, and my role was to overhaul the visual language and direction of the magazine in the United States, which would then influence all global editions. This was a significant task, considering ELLE was the largest fashion magazine in the world at that time.
The success of this endeavour was rooted in our approach to redefining the brand. We started by personifying ELLE; it wasn’t just a magazine, it was a girl. We explored questions like, “If ELLE was a French girl who lived in America, what would that look like in a magazine format?” This approach wasn’t just about designing a magazine; it was about creating every page to feel iconic and signature to the brand’s ethos.
This rebranding resonated immediately post-launch. In 2008, during a recession year, ELLE, which was previously ranked fifth or sixth behind Vogue and others, climbed to number one. This success was a testament to our approach of combining fashion with intelligence, substance, and quality, delivering a product that felt genuine and real, connecting with readers on a holistic level.
The challenge was immense, considering the competition and the initial reluctance from various creatives to work with us, fearing repercussions from other leading magazines. But we persevered by choosing to find and nurture new talents and building a unique visual signature for ELLE. The redesign, which is still visible on newsstands in 2023, is a testament to the enduring impact of our work.
In 2006, the feedback mechanisms for media were significantly different compared to today. How did you navigate the process of iterative development to ensure the concept you were working on was successful? What kind of feedback loop were you relying on?
Yes, in 2006 the landscape was entirely different – we were without the immediate digital feedback mechanisms we have today. Think about it, no iPhones, Instagram was yet to emerge, and Twitter was just taking its baby steps. Facebook, while present, was still in its nascent stage. This meant that as an editor, your reliance was heavily on instinct and an innate understanding of what might resonate with the readers. It wasn’t about scanning through online comments or measuring click-through rates. It was far more organic, perhaps raw, in its approach.
Back then we engaged with our readers through traditional means – they wrote letters, and we scrutinized what was selling at the newsstands. There’s an interesting aspect to print media; unlike digital media today, which offers a plethora of data, print media was, and to some extent still is, an enigma. You sell a copy, and that’s pretty much the end of your insight into reader engagement. You don’t know which article made them linger, which photograph caught their eye, or what they felt about a particular feature. It was about understanding your reader, but without the granular details we’re now accustomed to.
The guiding principle was simple yet complex – trust your instincts. And it was a time when instincts played a significant role. You had to feel the pulse of the readers, sense the societal trends, and sometimes, just go with a gut feeling. The feedback was less about numbers and more about a general sense of acceptance or rejection.
There were these unspoken rules, or perhaps trends, that we observed – big hair, certain colors, particular styles, bold numbers (to convey value) on covers seemed to do well. But they were not hard and fast rules. They were more like guidelines, giving us a framework to experiment within. And experimentation was key. You could follow all these ‘rules’ and still end up with an issue that didn’t do as well as expected. Or break all the norms and witness a bestseller.
My role was about keeping an ear to the ground, being attuned to what’s happening around, and then translating that into something tangible, something that would resonate with our readers. And often, it boiled down to what we, as a team, loved and believed in. It was about championing new talents, taking risks, being the first to feature now-celebrated faces. I recall pushing for emerging artists, convincing my team about their potential. It was about taking a stance, often against the current, to bring something fresh to our readers.
So, in a nutshell, the process was a blend of intuition, understanding of cultural undercurrents, and a willingness to take risks. It was about creating something that we believed in, something that spoke to us. And when it clicked with the audience, that was our indication that we had landed on a concept that worked. It was a different era, one that cherished the human element in decision-making, an era that perhaps valued the artistic over the analytical. And in many ways, that’s what made it special.
With the advent of social media, how have you seen things change over time, especially in terms of storytelling for brands and celebrities? How important is social media now, and is it the predominant channel for the foreseeable future?
Social media has revolutionized our interaction with content. It’s interactive, engaging, and offers a two-way conversation, unlike anything we’ve seen before. The rise of platforms like Instagram and Twitter has shifted the paradigm from monologue to dialogue. As someone who’s been in the industry both before and during this seismic shift, I’ve witnessed firsthand how these platforms have evolved from casual sharing spaces to integral marketing tools, providing real-time insights and driving business decisions.
But there’s a love-hate relationship here. Initially, social media was a free-for-all space where brands could communicate directly with their audience. It was less about analytics and more about sharing thoughts and ideas. But as I moved to digital-centric roles, like at Yahoo, I saw a different side – social media as a tool for deep analysis and strategic business growth. It’s not just about posting a pretty picture anymore; it’s about understanding and leveraging data for business growth.
The democratic nature of social media is its most compelling aspect. It’s not limited to celebrities or big brands; anyone can have a voice. This inclusivity is vital, but it also opens doors to misinformation and viral trends that can spiral out of control. It’s a balancing act – providing a platform for open communication while mitigating the risks of misinformation and negative viral content.
Looking ahead, I often wonder how this will evolve for the next generation. My daughter, at three, is already adept at navigating digital platforms. Her interaction with content, her preference for commercials on YouTube, indicates a shift in content consumption. It’s fascinating to consider how this generation might redefine our understanding of media and advertising.
Considering the current trajectory of social media, especially with apps such as BeReal promoting authenticity over production, how do you envision the next generation interacting with and consuming brands in a world post the cynicism associated with traditional big tech social media platforms?
Predicting the future, especially two decades ahead, is a complex task. But the evolution of social media and technology, as witnessed over the years, offers some fascinating insights. For instance, the drastic shift from my childhood, where the concept of video calls seemed like a distant fantasy, to today’s reality where such interactions are commonplace through platforms like FaceTime, is extraordinary. This kind of rapid progression in technology makes it challenging yet intriguing to imagine what lies ahead.
The inception of apps like BeReal signifies a notable shift in the social media landscape. It initially appeared promising, offering a more genuine snapshot of daily life without the layers of production or performance. However, even this platform has shown tendencies towards manufactured authenticity. When users are prompted to post their BeReal for the day, I’ve observed people scrambling to present themselves in a certain light, indicating that even these ‘authentic’ moments are somewhat staged.
What’s intriguing is observing my daughter’s interaction with technology at a young age. Her proficiency with devices like Apple TV, her preference for YouTube over other platforms, and her unexpected interest in commercials offers a window into how the next generation might engage with media. Unlike my generation, which often seeks to avoid advertisements, she views these commercials as mini-entertainment segments, akin to TikToks. This perspective could significantly alter how we approach advertising in the future. Instead of traditional commercials, envisioning these as short, engaging stories might be more appealing to the younger audience. The average TikTok user spends hours on the platform daily, suggesting a potential for this format in advertising.
Moreover, the evolution of social media platforms like TikTok, moving towards longer-form content, indicates a flexibility and adaptability in content consumption patterns. Platforms like Clubhouse, which gained popularity for their audio-based content during the pandemic, demonstrate the constant experimentation in the digital space, though their long-term impact remains uncertain.
These observations and trends lead to a broader question of how social media and content consumption will evolve. Will the platforms we rely on today still be relevant in five years, or will they follow the path of platforms like Facebook, which has seen a shift in its user demographic and relevance? This uncertainty underscores the dynamic nature of digital media and its influence on both brand interaction and storytelling.
So, while it’s challenging to predict the exact trajectory of social media and its impact on future generations, it’s clear that adaptability, creativity, and an understanding of shifting consumer preferences will be crucial. As technology and platforms evolve, so must our approach to engagement, storytelling, and brand interaction, ensuring we remain connected with audiences in meaningful and relevant ways.
Given these rapid changes we’re witnessing, what are your thoughts on future trends in brand storytelling or celebrity-backed initiatives? Are there any emerging trends or strategies you’re currently exploring with your clients or brands?
When considering the future of brand storytelling and celebrity-backed initiatives, there’s a significant trend that stands out. It’s the concept of community ownership. In today’s digital landscape, neither brands nor celebrities truly own their communities. This includes influencers too. We’ve seen many influencers rise to fame quickly, capturing the attention of the young and trendy audience on platforms like YouTube or Instagram. However, as time passes, their relevance wanes; they either age out or lose interest, or their audience evolves. The digital world is fickle, and staying relevant is a continual challenge.
The crux of the issue is that communities exist on the platforms where the content is created. For instance, if a celebrity or influencer pushes their content on Instagram, the platform owns the community, not the individual. This dynamic poses a significant risk. Imagine if Instagram suddenly becomes obsolete or TikTok gets shut down in a region – what happens to the millions of followers? They are essentially lost because they were never really ‘owned’ by the influencer or the brand.
This lack of ownership is a critical concern, especially considering the life cycle of an influencer or a celebrity’s career. Most influencers start young, but what happens as they age? Their content and their audience will need to evolve with them. The ability to pivot and adapt while maintaining and moving their community is crucial.
The phenomenon isn’t limited to individuals. Even brands face similar challenges. Take Peloton, for example. They can garner thousands of participants for a live ride, creating a momentary, engaged community. But once the ride ends, the engagement drops. The challenge lies in maintaining that community’s engagement beyond these episodic interactions. Moreover, a lot of these community interactions happen on platforms like Facebook, which the brand doesn’t own. So, the question arises: how can brands deepen and retain ownership of their community?
Looking ahead, the concept of community will become a form of currency and a critical factor in commerce. The content a brand or celebrity creates drives the community, but ultimately, the community will dictate the success and currency of that brand or individual. Ensuring the relevancy and value of a brand or a celebrity will depend heavily on how well they can build, own, and maintain their community. It’s about creating a lasting dialogue and engagement that transcends the superficial interactions that are common today.
Ultimately, the future of brand storytelling and celebrity initiatives hinges on the ability to truly own and engage with a community. This will require a shift from the current dependency on external platforms to more sustainable, direct, and engaging forms of community interaction and management.
Reflecting on your experiences, what key values have you instilled in yourself and your team members to foster an environment of innovation, collaboration, and anticipation of future trends?
My approach to leadership and team management has evolved significantly over my career, especially from my experiences in the 90’s and 2000’s in the fashion world and within the halls of Condé Nast. That era, often likened to The Devil Wears Prada, was not just a cinematic exaggeration but a reflection of the reality of magazine publishing at the time. It was a period marked by a stark hierarchy, but it was also fascinating and formative for me.
Throughout my career, I’ve been fortunate to work under a variety of bosses – some incredibly supportive, others not so much. I’ve experienced work environments driven by fear as well as those inspired by creativity and vision. As I progressed and got the opportunity to lead and build teams, I made a conscious decision to foster a work culture driven by inspiration, not fear.
One of my core principles has been to democratize idea generation within my teams. Regardless of whether someone is an assistant or a senior editor, I believe everyone’s ideas carry equal weight. This approach breaks down hierarchical barriers and encourages everyone to contribute. For instance, when I began leading teams, particularly when I launched my own magazine at Condé Nast or took over existing teams, my first meetings would always emphasize this point. Everyone, irrespective of their position, was encouraged to bring their ideas to the table.
It’s been incredibly rewarding to see how such inclusivity can unlock potential. Some of the best ideas I’ve encountered came from those who were traditionally not expected to contribute creatively – like assistants or interns. These ideas, born from their unique experiences and perspectives, often brought fresh, innovative concepts to our projects.
This philosophy extends beyond just ideation. It’s about creating a culture where each team member feels seen, heard, and valued. It’s about understanding that the strength of a team lies in its diversity of thoughts and experiences. When team members from different backgrounds and hierarchical levels come together to share their perspectives, it enriches the creative process and helps anticipate and navigate future trends and challenges more effectively.
I’d say the key values I’ve tried to instill in my teams and in my approach to leadership are inclusivity, democratization of ideas, and fostering an environment where every voice matters. This approach not only nurtures innovation and collaboration but also helps in building a team that’s resilient, adaptable, and continuously evolving to stay ahead in a dynamic industry.
You mentioned the importance of working together and fostering a collaborative environment. Are there other leadership styles or principles you’ve adhered to as the world has evolved around you? What are the enduring leadership values you hold, and how have they adapted over time with the changes in the industry?
My leadership journey started in an industry deeply rooted in hierarchy, which I’ve always had an issue with. I understand the need for titles and structure, but the notion of hierarchy, the idea that one person is inherently better than another because of their position, has always troubled me. My approach has been to challenge this traditional hierarchy and make my leadership style as inclusive as possible.
The key for me has been to bring together diverse viewpoints. In my teams, I don’t just seek to gather people who share my perspective. Instead, I value differing opinions, even those that conflict with my own beliefs. When someone presents an idea that I initially disagree with, my first instinct is not to dismiss it outright but to understand it. I invite them to explain their perspective, to make their case. Sometimes, even if an idea doesn’t align perfectly with my initial thoughts, it opens new avenues for creativity and innovation.
This approach stems from my belief in the power of diversity and inclusion, not just as buzzwords but as crucial elements of a successful team. Hiring a diverse team isn’t about checking boxes; it’s about bringing together a range of experiences, backgrounds, and ideas to enrich the creative process. This diversity leads to a culture of collaboration and contribution, where everyone feels their voice is valued and their ideas can make a difference.
As the industry and the world have changed, so have my leadership values. They’ve evolved to emphasize continual adaptation and disruption. In a rapidly changing landscape, especially in content creation, it’s essential to stay ahead of trends, to constantly think about what’s new and next. Stagnation is the enemy of progress, so my leadership style focuses on fostering an environment where change is not just accepted but embraced. This means encouraging my team to be bold, to take risks, and to see failure not as a setback but as a learning opportunity.
In essence, my leadership philosophy is about breaking down traditional hierarchies, fostering diverse and inclusive teams, and creating a culture where innovation and adaptation are at the forefront. It’s about ensuring that everyone on my team feels empowered to contribute their unique perspectives, thereby driving the team and our projects forward in dynamic and exciting ways.
Finally, as a parting gift, could you recommend a video, series, book, or resource that would enlighten our readers about branding, storytelling, or any related theme we’ve touched on today?
When I think about resources that have truly influenced me, the podcast series How I Built This immediately comes to mind. It’s not the newest resource out there, but its impact on me has been profound. I find myself revisiting episodes, drawing inspiration and insights each time. The series delves into the stories of founders behind successful companies, and it’s the raw, human side of these stories that really resonates with me.
The podcast doesn’t just focus on the technicalities like KPIs or ROI, which, while important, are not the entire story. It’s about the initial sparks, the real-life needs and dreams that led to the creation of these companies. Whether it’s the story of Spanx, which began with cutting the feet off tights, or Warby Parker addressing an underserved market in eyewear, these stories are grounded in necessity, innovation, and instinct.
Listening to these founders, you realize that the most successful brands often start not from a place of calculated market analysis, but from genuine passion and a desire to fill a gap in the market. It’s about identifying a need, either in your own life or in the lives of those around you and having the courage to address it.
What these stories have reinforced for me is the power of instinct in business. In a data-driven world, where every social media post is analyzed for insights, there’s still a significant place for human intuition and passion. This, to me, is a vital lesson, especially in creative industries. Whether you’re leading a fashion magazine or starting your own brand, the ability to trust your instincts and follow your passion is invaluable.
For me, How I Built This is more than a podcast. It’s a testament to human creativity and the entrepreneurial spirit. It celebrates the journey from concept to reality, reminding us that at the heart of every successful brand is a story of someone who dared to dream and had the tenacity to make it happen. I recommend it wholeheartedly to anyone looking to understand the essence of brand storytelling and the human element behind business success. It’s a reminder that in the end, our instincts are among our most valuable guides.
The interview has been edited for clarity.
Image Credit: Joe Zee/Handout
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